exclusive interview with Gambari

Lalit K Jha
Sunday, January 20, 2008 (United Nations)
The Special UN Envoy for Burma, Ibrahim Agboola Gambari, is scheduled to visit New Delhi later this month to have another round of discussion with (his) Indian (counterpart) leaders on how they can play an influential and meaningful role in meeting the Secretary General, Ban Ki Moon's goal of a peaceful, united, stable and democratic Burma, respectful to human rights.

Here are excerpts from an exclusive interview to NDTV.com given by Gambari.

NDTV: What has been India's role towards achieving your mission of a democratic Burma?

Gambari: When I took over as Special Advisor to the Secretary General last year in May, India's position that time was ambivalent, and vaguely supportive of Secretary General's role, but they really did not much with that. I do not want to use the word pressure, but try to strongly urge Myanmar to co-operate fully with the Good Offices role of the Secretary General.

I am happy to say that after two visits to India, India's position seems to have evolved. At least they have now publicly said that they strongly support the role of Good Offices of the Secretary General. Secondly, they have also been sending messages to the authorities in Myanmar to cooperate fully with me. I believe that is a step forward.

NDTV: Is it enough?

Gambari: We want India to do more because, as you know - it is public, they are not hiding - India is just in the process of signing a huge contract to build a port there (in Myanmar). What we are saying is that to the extent that gives India some leverage, we would like (India) to help on other front, to be able to send the right messages to the authorities to cooperate fully and make the process of engagement with them and Good Offices of the Secretary General to produce tangible results. So far, some progress has been made, but still a lot more needs to be done.

NDTV: How much influence India has on Burma?

Gambari: It is difficult to say. India is a big neighbor. So, clearly Myanmar should take into account India's views. There are also, insurgent groups who are fighting from Myanmar side of the border; fighting the Indian government. So I think there is some mutual - and of course India is interested in some of the resources of Myanmar oil and gas and others. The way we see it that it positions them to be helpful. It is also true that it modifies how far they can go, how far they are willing to go, but we think they have enough and sufficient influence to be helpful to us in what is our common objective of a peaceful, united, stable and democratic Myanmar respectful to human rights.

This would be consistent with India's own being. It is a democratic country with true commitment to human rights. We also believe that a peaceful prosperous and democratic Myanmar would be even a better partner for India than what the situation is right now.

NDTV: What further steps you would like India to take in the coming months?

Gambari: I would really like to impress upon the authorities in Myanmar that it is in their interest as well as the interest of the neighboring countries, ASEAN and the international community that they engage seriously with the Good Offices Mission of the Secretary General and work with me to bring up tangible results from the engagement. That message has to be delivered, and if India offered to do so, it would be extremely helpful to us.

NDTV: Hasn't India delivered that message in the last couple of months?

Gambari: We read some reports that the Foreign Minister of Myanmar was visiting India. We also read the public statement and hope that even in the private conversation, this point would be made much more strongly. Fortunately, the Indian government has invited me and I would be going there (India) at the end of this month. I would try to find out from them, what further steps they have taken or intend to take and even more importantly what feedback do they have from conversations with the representatives of the Myanmar government.

NDTV: When you visit India at the end of this month, what would be on your agenda?

Gambari: I would like to continue the conversation and consultation on how best we can all work together to bring about tangible results we expect from the authorities in Myanmar. Do not forget, on December 19, the Secretary General inaugurated the Group of Friends of the Secretary General on Myanmar. India is a member of this. So I want to review this, how they see this group, in what direction it is moving and how to strengthen it. Also, to get brief on that conversation with authorities and finally to seek their support for my next visit, which I hope would be sooner than later to Myanmar with the objective of deliverance of tangible results.

NDTV: What are the tangible results? What are you looking for?

Gambari: First of all we believe the current situation in Myanmar can only be resolved through dialogue. A process of dialogue has been ensued between the government and the leader of the opposition. There are three things we are looking for in that dialogue. Firstly, the dialogue should lead to tangible results in terms of advancing the process of democratizations; advancing more inclusive national reconciliation process; advancing the writing of the constitution in a way that it takes into account the views of the opposition and ethnic nationalities group and including views of those who were excluded from the national convention process or decided not to participate because they thought it was not serious. That is something I would like to see either before or at least during or immediately after my next visit to the country.

The second is that hopefully my next visit would also lead to release of political prisoners particularly Aung San Suu Kyi. We believe that if a political figure - her party NLD had won the last election in 1990 - is to be considered as a true partner then she should not be subject to the same restrictions as she is having before engaging her as a partner in the dialogue.

The third major thing that hopefully would come out is the decision by the Myanmar government on establishment of what we recommended as a Poverty Alleviation Commission, because we feel strongly at the UN that the root causes of discontent are not only political, but also social and economic and that these should be addressed.

A commission can begin to identify the scale of the problem and strategies for addressing them. I can assure them if there is tangible progress overall, the international community is ready to help them in addressing the root cause of the discontent.

NDTV: Since August 2007 how much progress has been made by military junta towards achieving these tangible results?

Gambari: Well, they have released some detained people, including those detained in the last crisis in September and October. They have allowed (the UN Special Rapporteur) Prof Paulo Penheiro to come into the country. I have been allowed back and forth in the country twice including the opportunity each time to see Aung San Suu Kyi and to help facilitate the dialogue.

They have also appointed the Minister of Labor as the Liaison Officer, which has had four meetings with Aung San Suu Kyi. She has also been allowed to have, on one occasion, to meet with some executive members of her political party. They have also taken the step to appoint a constitutional drafting committee. Now we recommend a Constitutional Review Commission.

So these are potentially positive, but a substantive dialogue is yet to be started. Aung San Suu Kyi is still in detention. We have yet seen no commitment to open up the process of constitutional drafting that takes the views of others, who were excluded and finally establishment of a broad based national poverty alleviation commission.

NDTV: How much hopeful are you that Aung San Suu Kyi would be released soon?

Gambari: I can only hope sooner than later. The reason: after accepting some one as partner, you can't continue to put that partner in the condition she is now. People of Myanmar would be better served when their leaders are talking about how to jointly address the challenges facing the country. We believe that is the best way forward and this would send the right signal not only to people of Myanmar but also to the neighbors.

NDTV: You are the only one from the outside world to meet Aung San Suu Kyi. What is her vision for Burma? Is she willing to talk and have a dialogue with the junta leaders?

Gambari: You know, the government authorities in Myanmar used to say that she was stubborn and impossible; she does not want to talk. Well she has said publicly in statement that she was ready on her behalf. She was also committed to cooperate with the government with a view to start a dialogue.

I think she wants to engage in dialogue, but not a dialogue just for the sake of dialogue but something that would be substantive, time bound and at some point later would include ethnic nationalities because she realized that Myanmar is no where close where it should be. It is a resource rich country, but has been forced to a state of isolation and subject to sanctions. That is not where she would like her country to be. I think, she wants a country that is united, there is national reconciliation so that it can realize its true potential and also be a respected member of the international community. I believe that she should be given an opportunity to make a meaningful contribution to take the country in that direction.

NDTV: Coming back to India, in the last one decade India moved from being pro-democracy supporter to almost pro-junta and now it appears to be that it is gradually moving towards pro-democracy. How do you assess India's progress?

Gambari: I did not handle these until 2006. I read about India's previous position. Once I started working on this issue first as the Head of the Department of Political Affairs and now as the Special Envoy, it has coincided with what I believe is gradual movement of India living true to its own principles - democracy, open society and respect for human rights. This is where I believe India should be. I am happy we have seen that. What I am urging is to translate this into concrete support to the Good Offices of the Secretary General so as to produce tangible result in terms of our engagement with the authorities and believe that they can do it. I see the willingness that they want to do it.

NDTV: Observers say that in the last couple of months, India has been sending mixed signals. How do you view all this?

Gambari: Well, I guess as a neighboring country the bilateral relationship between India and Myanmar is very varied and multidimensional but what concerns us is not really their bilateral relations, but to use that in our view as an opportunity and leverage to help us by transmitting right messages and strongly encourage the authorities there to do the right thing. We strongly believe that the best guarantee for India's investment really is a peaceful, stable and democratic Myanmar. This would be the best for people of Myanmar and also for neighboring country such as India for sustainability of their bilateral relations and their investments in that country.

NDTV: Do you think, China influences India's role in Burma?

Gambari: I am told that one of the reasons in the past that Indian has not been as forthcoming as they could have been, was geo-political relationship between India and China. And there was fear that if they played too hard on the generals that would push them further in the hands of China. I do not know if that is correct analysis or not. But, what I know is that it is not in China's interest or India's interest or any neighboring country's interest or ASEAN's interest, certainly not in the interest of the people of Myanmar if the status quo continues. It is not sustainable.